Saturday, 11 June 2011
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When Children Murder Children
So I just read this news article about a five year old drowning an 18 month old in a bathtub. No adults were there. A 16 year old was left to watch the kids and had fallen asleep. The 18 month old was crying and screaming so the 5 year old brought him to the bathroom and drowned him. As of right now they are treating it as a homicide and holding the 5 year old accountable.I'm not sure what to make of this one. I think the 16 year old should be held accountable too. But really what can you do with a 5 year old? Did the kid even know what he was doing? He was probably just trying to get the other child to stop crying. But then what if the kid did know?
Have you seen The Good Son? Messed up, freaky movie where a child murders his own brother. I'm obviously not saying this is the case here, but I'm just glad I don't have to be the one to decide who's guilty. In the article it said they are going to give the 5 year old a full mental examination.
But even if the child is held accountable, where would you put a five year old and what kind of treatment would you give them? And if it was an accident, where the child didn't realize what he was doing, where do you go from there? How horrible would it be growing up knowing you murdered someone when you were 5?
This is a confusing situation to me.
What do you guys think about it? Who would you hold accountable?
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- From: lemons_to_lemonade@xanga
- Name: lemons_to_lemonade
- Location: New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
- About Me: I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. I'm usually for the most part pretty honest. If you want to know something then ask, but don't get mad if you don't like the answer. Life is too short to go through it unhappy, and if you figure out how to do that please let me know. I'm sarcastic and sometimes upfront and rude, but every question deserves an answer. I'm tired of giving people what they want. I'm constantly searching for an answer when I'm not even quite sure what the question is. I firmly believe that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And I don't think I should be the one to have to change to make someone else happy. This is me, take it or leave it.
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Comments (57)
As a lawyer I know, from past cases, he would get a life sentence no parole in ail, juvenile until he is 18. Best chances the 18 year old with wreckless endangerment, and jusy will aquit, and maybe if a plea bargain is brought he'll get 9 months, in addition, best case for the kid he is charged with manslaughter with a minimum of 5 years, depends how good his lawyer is.
This country is really strange. Holding a 5 yr old accountable? The babysitter was asleep for fuck's sake. That should not have happened. The babysitter should be held accountable and the child should at least have a psychiatric evaluation. Even if a child that young SEEMS like they fully understand death, believe me, they don't. They might get the gist of it but no I don't believe they fully comprehend it at that point. The kid figured "If I want the baby to shut up, Ill hold it underwater until it stops". Of course that part would make sense to a 5 yr old but do they understand the consequences and the finality of death? I highly doubt it. And I believe just throwing them into juvy would just make it worse. Ignoring the problem and throwing them into the system never works.
It's a sad thing, but I believe he knew what he was doing. Maybe the intention wasn't to /drown/ him, so maybe involuntary manslaughter would be better?, but I'm pretty sure he knew putting the baby under the water would shut him up.
I definitely think the 16 year old should be held responsible as well. Not as severe, obviously, but I know there's some charge out there that they could be charged (the proper name slips my mind at the moment).
Jesus! This is why kids that young cannot watch those kinds of movies! I bet he's seen the Good Son. As good of a movie that is, its very disturbing. And little kids shouldn't be watching it! Anyone that impressionable shouldn't be.
Looks like we have a new Michael Myers.
Well, you can't really put a 5-year-old in jail or juvi... can you? I think it would be best for the kid to get psychiatric help and some kind of punishment (I don't know what that would be, though). And the 16-year-old babysitter should DEFINITELY be accounted for on some kind of charge! That's irresponsible of him/her to fall asleep while watching children, especially just an 18-month-old! He/she should be charged with criminal negligence or child neglect or something along those lines.
some children are born sociopaths. this kid might be one. they are even more dangerous than adults because no one wants to punish a child that "might" not understand what he did. this kid will play that role so well, only a trained professional can tell the difference.
@Brilliant_Innocence@xanga - I still say that some form of punishment would be suited.
I just saw the story, it said that the 16 year old had a mental disability as well.
All these people are saying that when you are 5 you dont understand that when something dies it doesnt come back... When I was five my moms boyfriends dog drowned in a pool and I knew he couldnt breathe underwater which can make you die and I knew he wasnt coming back. I almost drowned at the beach when I was 5 as well and I knew I could have died, which is why it scared me so much that I am still afraid of the ocean and wont go in past my thighs.I dont have a high IQ and I wasnt extra smart as a child... I was normal. So why wouldnt this child know? Im not saying he did it intentionally or that he even knew what was happening, but if I knew then he could have known too.
I am also glad that I would not be one of the people who has to determine what happens in this situation. Mental evaluation is a really good place to start. I think it would be a good idea for all children to get a mental evaluation before starting school, before going to jr, and high school, so the teachers/councilors/principals would actually know about the children.. orr could atleast pull a file on those children if need be. But Americans dont really give a shit about school/education/mental health or preventative measures.
@Muna_the_spoon@xanga - Not every 5 year old is the same. When I was young they'd take me to the farms in Honduras and we'd help them catch and kill pigs. Young children CAN learn what death is and I wouldn't be surprised if a child that was malicious enough to stick a baby in a tub of water knew how death worked.
Maybe, the child has watched his parents bathe the baby and when they bathe the baby when he's crying, he calms down because of the warm water and such, and this kid was just trying to do the same thing. I honestly don't think he meant to drown him. No, I don't think he should be charged with murder. I think that the 16 year old should be charged with negligent homicide or something of the sort because, they were supposed to be watching these two small children and they weren't.
Give the five year old a psych consult, and based on the results, go from there. This kid is going to be traumatized enough when he fully understands exactly what he did, he doesn't need to go to Juvi. -.- Maybe intensive therapy.
@theflowerstem@xanga - The sitter was being paid to watch two children and they couldn't keep themselves awake. It's the sitter's fault that the baby got killed because they weren't awake to watch the kids. Negligent homicide.
[(I AM NOT SCREAMING - I APOLOGISE FOR WRITING IN CAPS LOCK - JUST IN A HURRY TO RESPOND AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE - NO TIME FOR PUNCTUATION AND SYNTAX)]
THERE ARE MANY LEVELS OF TRAGEDY TO THE EVENT JUST DESCRIBED AND HAVING NO FACTS RELATING TO FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS AND INTERACTIONS I AM RESPONDING FROM EXPERIENCE IN DEALING WITH HORRIFFIC EVENTS IN WHICH VERY YOUNG CHILDREN ARE INVOLVED IN COMMITTING HEINOS ACTS.
A MENTAL HEALTH EVALUATION WILL LOOK TO SEE IF THE CHILD SUFFERS FROM AN INCURABLE MENTAL DISEASE - SCHIZAPHRENIA OF A PARANOID OR DELUSIONAL NATURE, WHICH INVOLVES VIOLENT, MURDEROUS FANTASIES AND PROEOCCUPATIONWWITH DEATH, TORTURE AND AN INDIFFERENCE TO PAIN AND SUFFERING.
THE ISSUE MOST OFTEN NOT DEALT WITH IS THE LEVEL OF PARENTAL GENERATION OF JEALOUSY CREATED BETWEEN CHILDREN. THE PARENTS MAY HAVE NO IDEA THAT THEY HAVE CREATED AN ATMOSPHERE OF INTENSE JEALOUSY AND THAT THE CHILD WHO HAS COMMITTED A TERRIBLE ACT HAS ONLY WANTED TO RE-ATTAIN THE PARENTS' LOVE AND ATTENTION AND IN THE PROCESS OF ATTENDING TO THE TROUBLESOME OBJECT OF THEIR ANNOYANCE, MAY HAVE, TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY TRIED TO DEAL WITH A SITUATION AT HAND IN MUCH THE SAME WAY THAT THEY SAW THEIR PARENT DEAL WITH THE OTHER CHILD - BATHE THEM, FEED THEM,COVER THEM AND IN SODOING KILL THE OBJECT FOR WHICH THEY TRIED TO CARE.
JUST AS CHILDREN PLAY WITH DOLLS, THEY MODEL THE PARENT'S STYLE OF CARE AND ATTENTION AND PLAY OUT SCENARIOS OF GOOD BABY, BAD BABY. EMPATHY, UNDERSTANDING AT DIFFERENT LEVELS EMERGE AS EACH PERSON AGES, EXPERIENCES AND DEVELOPS PERSPECTIVES AS SEEN THROUGH THE EYES OF THE OTHER.
SOMEONE COMMENTED ON THE CASE FROM ENGLAND WHERE TWO YOUNG BOYS, I BELIEVE IN THEIR EARLY TEENS(I DO HAVE THE CASE IN MY FILES) ABDUCTED, TORTURED AND LEFT THE BODY OF A DEAD SIX YEAR OLD ON TRAIN TRACKS, SO THAT HIS BODY WOULD BE SOOOOO MUTILATED IT WOULD NOT BE RECOGNIZED.
THE BOYS SHOVED ROCKS DOWN THE SIX YEAR OLD'S THROAT TO WATCH HIM DIE.
THE TWO BOYS WENT TO PRISON IN THE UK SENTENCED AS CHILDREN BUT RELEASED AT THE AGE OF TWENTY ONE BY JUSTICE DAME........WHO STATED THAT THE ACTS OF CHILDREN SHOULD NOT DEFINE THEIR CHARACTER THROUGH THEIR LIVES. THE COURTS HAD COME TO AGREE THAT THE BOYS DID NOT SUFFER AN INCURABLE MENTAL ILLNESS - SCHIZAPHRENIA WITH VIOLENT/PARANOID DELUSIONS AND WERE TREATED IN HOSPITAL INTENSIVELY. THE COURT DECIDED THAT THEY WERE "CHANGED" PEOPLE" WHO SHOULD BE GIVEN A CHANCE AT LIFE". THEIR IDENTITIES WERE CHANGED, THEY HAVE GONE TO SCHOOL AND ASSUME LIVES OF QUIET ANONYMITY.
THE PICTURE OF CHILDREN WHO COMMIT BRUTAL CRIMES AT INCREDIBLY YOUNG AGES ARE NOT MYSTERIES. THEY ARE CHILDREN WHO EXHIBIT BIZARRE ACTS OF CRUELYT TO ANIMALS AND OTHER CHILDREN, WHO WET THEIR BEDS AND ARE PREOCCUPIED WITH FIRE SETTING AND CAUSING PAIN. THEIR LEVEL OF EMPATHY AND CONCERN AND REMORSE IS SUPERFICIAL AND SHORT LIVED. MANY PEOPLE KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE - OR WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THEM AND YET THERE IS LITTLE OR NO INTERVENTION AS NO ONE WANTS TO GET INVOLVED - BECOME THE NEW OBJECT OF SUCH HOSTILE ACTION AS COULD BE COMMITTED ON THE WHISTLE BLOWER - OR EVERYONE IS JUST "BUSY"
JILL JONES-SODERMAN- MSW, MSHS EXEC.
DIR. - THEFAMILY RESOLUTION CENTER JILL@THEOPENMIND.US
@misslei11@xanga - Negligent Homicide does not involve a 16 year old falling asleep on a five year old and a 18 month old. At five years old the kid is smart enough to alert the babysitter, the five year old would have woken up his/her parent so why not the babysitter? Someone said the five year old may have been jealous of the baby so maybe that kid took this as it's opportunity to get rid of the baby.
I don't think they will do much to the 5 year old. I go to school for criminal justice & 6 & under cannot be held accountable 7-14 can, depending on the situation & 14-older obviously can. It's a sad situation. I don't think anyones to blame except maybe the babysitter for not doing her job and babysitting the children.
At five I told my little sister (who was 3) to ride her three weel bike across our road (which was a high way). My little sister was about to do it when my mom came out and I think about i ALL THE TIME. I didn't understand that my sister would of probably died, I just dared her to do something I thought was cool.
The five year old probably tried giving the baby a bath to make it stop crying. That 16 year old is entirely at fault NOT the child, this is with out question.
I cannot imagine leaving my 5 year old nephew in a room alone with my 14 month old neice EVER. Not to mention leaving them alone long enough for my nephew to put her in the bathtub and fill it with water.
This is not a case of murder and I feel so bad forthe five year old. People shouldn't focus in this because you do not want a child to remember this... there is a good chance they wont cinsidering 5 is still a baby to me, in my opinion.
http://www.kplr11.com/news/ktvi-mother-speak-5-year-old-drowns-kc-61211,0,213969.story this is a link to the 18 month old mothers comments... you all should be ashamed of yourself for taking about a 5year old baby like she is a killerr...
REALLY SHAME ON YOU.
@babybug329@xanga - I agree
@WontLUVOrEaTNEmore@xanga - That really doesn't seem right.
@aphelps28@xanga - This is from the story you linked: The toddler drowned while playing with his five-year old aunt at his grandmother's home in Kansas City June 3rd. Police said the five-year old told social workers she intentionally drowned her nephew in the bathtub because he "cried too much."
She said she intentionally drowned her nephew for crying too much. Sounds like a sociopath to me.
where in the fuck did the kid learn to put a baby under water when it's crying ... ?
@Melissa___Dawn@xanga - Then that is different. That is a sociopath.
Speaking as a parent of two, My rational half says that the five year old did not know what s/he was doing, but as a grieving parent, I'm not sure I could ever look at my five year old the same ever again. Either way, the five year old should be held accountable but what should happen to them...I'm really not sure. The babysitter is most responsible for this death.
I don't know if I'd hold the babysitter accountable. Not criminally, anyway. She should have been paying closer attention, she should not have gone to sleep, but most people don't anticipate that if they go to sleep one of the kids they're sitting for is going to literally murder another child in your care. However, if she heard the screaming and crying from the baby and just chose to ignore it, that's another story. I actually figure that may be closer to the truth as far as the babysitter goes, although I can see why she might say she was asleep and hadn't even heard the crying.
It looks like the kid is a sociopath and he doesn't even know it.