Monday, 02 February 2009

  • Ethics of Infertility -The California Octuplets

    Nurse Jenna by Nurse Jenna

    Is it unethical to provide fertility treatments to someone who is not infertile?  The recent newsbreak that the 33-year old woman who gave birth to octuplets already has 6 children certainly leads one to question the medical legitimacy of the doctor who provided her with either infertility drugs, or in-vitro fertilization. 

    Though the use of fertility treatments is not being officially confirmed, I am willing to go out on a long, crazy limb and say that this is no “miracle”, unless it is the miracle of modern medicine. Didn’t someone once wisely name a TV show “Eight is Enough”?   

    I’m not sure that there are many situations in which I could be convinced that a family of 16 (or 15 if she is a single parent) could be an ideal environment in which to grow-up, unless, that is, you are trying to breed the hired-help for a farm.  Children require resources---both parental attention and money--and most people realize the value of both, and plan their families accordingly.  While the “optimal” family size leaves a broad spectrum for interpretation, I do not know on what planet a “mere” brood of six makes you eligible for medical intervention for a lack of fecundity.  The fact that some are defending this completely baffles me.  They say, “Who are we to police peoples’ reproductive lives?”   I think when we establish medical definitions of infertility we are therefore agreeing to establish guidelines for determining those people who need reproductive assistance from those who do not.   

    While it may be one’s fundamental right to attempt to reproduce, and likewise not to have reproduction inappropriately hindered, how does this lead to the conclusion that a person is entitled to conceive at all costs, regardless of the medical time and resources invested, not to mention the risk to the children they are creating?

    The couples, or women requesting inappropriate use of reproductive technology may not understand the risks involved both to the women themselves and children of multiple gestational pregnancies, but the doctors assisting them certainly should.  We are counting on their expertise and discrimination not to allow such a gross abuse of the diagnosis of “infertility.”  Or even if a "misdiagnosis" is made, having the common sense not to place eight embryos, a number that would normally not be attempted even for someone with a long history of fertility issues. 

    If doctors do not exercise better judgment, the children of these pregnancies pay with untold medical and developmental problems, others pay in increased insurance premiums for the high cost of the infertility treatments and the subsequent healthcare needs of these children, and society pays as our sense of propriety is dictated by egos and pocketbooks.

    Do you think there should be limitations on infertility treatments?  Did finding out the mother of the octuplets already had 6 children change your view of the situation?

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Comments (99)

  • malissa1578@xanga

    I think that when we developed infertility treatment for those that cannot or have problems conceiving, then we set guidelines for it by making this available for people with problems conceiving. I am thoroughly convinced that what she did was wrong... She first has no job and with six kids already... what is she going to do. There are plenty of woman and couples that would give anything to be able to have one baby... myself included. I have two, but cannot have anymore right now and would love to just have one more. Her parents have her living with them. What made her think this was alright and who paid for the fertility treatments to begin with? I don't really care how many people try and defend her, it will not change my opinion that she took advantage of something put out there to help others that do have problems.
  • ELIZerson@xanga

    I thought the whole situation was bogus from the beginning.
    That she already had 6 kids, that she used IVF, and that she is SINGLE.

    Not that single people can't have kids. But honestly, it's not like she was lonely or anything, she already had 6!!!
  • averyswife@xanga

    Having heard the woman's story, I tend to think she is a little crazy.  But still, if she's paying for all the treatments and the cost of having the babies, I see no reason why she shouldn't be allowed to have as many children as she wants.  If she's on government welfare or Medicaid though, the government should have every right to limit her.  I think that's where I would draw the defining line: all her money = her choice; government's money = no longer her choice.


    But she does sound rather crazy, although they say she's always been a good mother.
  • BalletdBeth@xanga

    I don't see how any doctor in his right mind would give her infertility treatments she's got 6 six kids and is a single mother! I think the mother's mental status and the doctor's practice should both be investigated... 
  • TornadoChaser

    The mother of the woman with octuplets told a reporter that her daughter was diagnosed with a baby obsession. All her children were from IVF with the same sperm donor. She had some left over and instead of letting them go to waste she asked to have them implanted. And there ya go. Not only is this woman single she is living with her mother although her mother stated that she will not be there when her daughter returns from the hospital. So now she has 14 kids by herself to care for. After the free stuff and money runs out, who is going to pay for those kids? Tax payers.

    I think the doctors used extremely bad judgment in this case. But then I don't see where we can draw the line with doctors making ethical decisions like this.
  • LadyPadfoot@xanga

    I still don't understand how she got the treatment. Why the hell would a doctor allow her to do such a thing? She already has six young children to care for a now she has another eight even smaller children.

    From what I've read her mother doesn't sound all that supporting and her father is leaving for Iraq to work.

    No matter how I look at it all I see is fourteen children getting screwed in the end.
  • XxFireXboltxX@xanga

    I don't know enough about fertility treatments to really discuss that much....but I do wonder if her receiving them made it harder for women who were needing the treatments to get them. I don't know the supply and demand status for fertility treatments but, I would wonder about that.

    But then again...when do you say "you have enough kids, no more fertility treatments for you?" John and Kate from the TLC show conceived their oldest two using fertility treatments and then went back for more fertility treatments to have one more baby and ended up with six. So....if you are going to draw a line, where do you draw it? You know?

  • lilbit@xanga

    Ignorance is bliss? Geez!


    This is why we tax payers won't be able to truly afford families of our own because we are paying for everyone else's!


    When will people realize that in order to have a car you have to pass a test to get a license. To get married you need a license. To catch a fish you need a license. To hunt? Same thing. To be able to vote you have to register for a registration card.


    But to procreate? Nope! Just lay back and spread 'em. Even if it means filing your dozen +2 children into the poor house, it's ok.


    Why you ask? Because the government makes it all better. Obama's presidency said so. No more house notes, no more bills, we can live on welfare for the rest of our lives because Obama said it's ok. Have babies that a parent can't possibly feed or afford. Just because we didn't want all that sperm to go to waste lets have us some more kids. There is someone else out there working who will GIVE me what I want.
  • PhatBoY113@xanga

    As others have already mentioned, this woman is single and lives with her parents, along with her previous 6 children.  From what I've read, the mother has been "baby-obsessed" since she was a teenage and all her children are through IVF.


    Now I have no problems with couples using IVF to have a baby they can support but this woman is obviously having children to satiate her own selfish desires with absolutely no consideration for the best interest of the children.


    I'm very curious as to how her IVF was funded.  I can't imagine insurance paying for such a procedure and she probably doesn't work since she lives with her parents and her other 6 children.
  • raved@xanga

    Whether a couple (or single parent) has 1 child or 10, my only concern is that they are well cared for. I don't know how a single mother will care for 6 children and 8 babies on her own, and I am curious to find out her financial situation.

    No, there should not be a limit.
    To each their own.
  • filtered_sunlight

    CBS article here.


    LadyPadFoot said it best, "No matter how I look at it all I see is fourteen children getting screwed in the end."


    You have to pass a mental-health exam to get a nose job, but to have kids? Just find a willing guy and get it on or, in this case, sign a check. Impressive...just impressive.


    I see this chic, the Duggars and even 'John & Kate Plus 8' with so many little ones and have to wonder, how do they think this is a good idea?! You can get financial help and make it. But what about having any sort of meaningful relationship with the kids? Spending quality time with them and teaching them about life and how to live it fully? It's neglect, really.

  • Erika_Steele@xanga

    wow is all I have to say.


    I understand why she used in vitro, she had a sperm donor.  I do not understand why a doctor would implant so many embryos in a healthy woman under 35.


    Who knows what she is thinking.  I don't know how you would regulate something that comes down to a matter of morals.  Most people that didn't have the money or time would not have 8 babies at once if they had 6 children at home.
  • vickevlar@xanga

    This post brings up a lot of important and interesting points about the "right" to reproduce. I usually dwell on that in terms of population control where you usually are looking in from a societal/global perspective. In this case you tend to focus on the individuals in the specific situation, but I have to wonder what the costs and benefits are to society with this one woman's decision-making as well. 

    It's a really tough issue but I do think we have to make a firm stand on the idea that not every desire to conceive is sacred (to steal a quote from my dad...)  Hell, we're a civilized society yet no one wants to touch these problems based on primal instinct with a 10 foot pole.  
  • pandasp0ts@xanga

    @filtered_sunlight - I think I mostly agree with you as far as the Duggars (although, I always remind myself thet they're spread out, which I feel makes it marginally better) and this lady are concerened, but John and Kate are such a different story, imho.


    I don't really watch their show, so I'm not 100 percent positive, about all of their details, but I do know that J&K only intended three (and it wasn't the same as Ms. Greedypants, who still wanted more after six) and adapted when they were thrown a curveball; adapted well.


    Even with eight kids, she still feeds them pretty much completely organically, organizes special days to be with the children alone, takes them on outings and does crafts with them, not to mention that she takes care of the essenttials; keeping them clean and well fed.


    I don't know why I just decided to blather on about them, you weren't even slamming hem. xD I was just reading Kate's book the other day (I'm not very far in) and I just think she's so cool.

  • EccentricSiren@xanga

    I think there's a huge difference between having as many as you want naturally and using IVF as many times as you want. If we were to limit how many children a person can have without help of any sort, the only way to enforce it would be forced abortions and/or sterilizations. That is a violation of privacy, not to mention against some people's religions.


    However, with IVF, if you limit the number a person can have, or restrict who has access to it, you're not, as far as I know, violating anyone's religious beliefs, and as far as invading privacy is concerned, it's a lot less invasive denying someone an IVF because they already have 5 biological children than it is forcing them to have an abortion.
  • LadyLibellule@xanga

    Do you think there should be limitations on infertility treatments?

    Yes.

    Did finding out the mother of the octuplets already had 6 children change your view of the situation?

    Finding out that she was unmarried, unemployed, and living with her parents disgusted me far more.  She's got 14 children now (including at least one kid with autism) under the age of 7.  The woman is a baby hoarder and she needs help.
  • SarahAriella@xanga

    I don't believe it matters what anyone thinks at this point.  The woman has the kids. 


    One can argue the ethics or bitch and whine about tax payer support but at the end of the end of the day...this is a done deal. 

  • filtered_sunlight

    @pandasp0ts@xanga -  - I rather like Kate, too. And they were a whole different situation...using fertility drugs instead of opting to have seven eggs fertilized and implanted. I just think it has to be hard, on a day-to-day, basis to meet all the emotional needs of the children with so many of them being so young all at the same time. (Though if I had to put my money on anyone being able to do it, it would be her.)
  • pandasp0ts@xanga

    @filtered_sunlight - Haha, absolutely. And I do understand how it's hard to form close emotional bonds / find time to bond with each when you have so many at the exact same developmental stage (it's hard sometimes with only a few kids to do the same!). I just wanted to jump in when it sounded like you were putting all the crazies in the same boat with John and Kate's brood. :) (O NOES THE BOAT HAS REACHED MAXIMUM CAPACITY -- IF YOU MUST THROW CHILDREN OVERBOARD PLEASE LET THEM NOT BE KATE'S. xD)


    I read a statement from the woman's father that said they implanted far fewer fert. eggs, and they multipled. Honestly, I know little about in vitro, so I was wondering if anyone knows the liklihood of this? Because that's the most shocking part of the story to me; how she was implanted with EIGHT (at least) eggs when she's not thirty-five yet, and already had six kids.


    & I can't even immagine having eight pregnancies in seven years. Wouldn't you get tired of the constant state of pregnancy?? O____O
  • filtered_sunlight

    @pandasp0ts@xanga - Re: 8 pregnancies in 7 years... On a semi-related note, someone did the math on the Duggar woman's "years spent pregnant"  and I nearly fainted... OVER TEN YEARS!!  I know...it's not like it was ten years straight, but still...that's at least 3 years of being so huge that you can barely move. Potentially, another 3 years of morning sickness. *shiver* I couldn't do it.

  • IamKelleyK@xanga

    @MlleBaroque@xanga - I completely agree.


    From what I've heard on the news, she lives with her mother who recently filed for bankruptsy.  I can't imagine that they would be in good living conditions though, since they're in a small apartment. 


    It kind of makes me sick that this doctor would go ahead and do the IVF.  Poor judgement in my opinion.
  • sugartomyhoney@xanga

    I think this is a problem of an unethical doctor.  It reminds me of people who want plastic surgery over and over and over again until they look plastic and the dr. continues to do it because of the money. That's all they care about and the person really need psychological help. 

    Someone paid that dr. IVF treatment is expensive.  Usually, insurance doesn't pay or at least not all of it, unless you have some kind of super incredible insurance!  My question is why did the doc. do this and why didn't he get his patient the help she really needs?
  • snowvampire@xanga

    Currently I am infertile. My husband and I don't have the money to pay for infertility treatment/testing out of pocket, and my health insurance doesn't cover inferitlity.  Apparently Kansas isn't required to cover infertility.  I just got my period today and so I'm going to give up on getting pregnant for at least 1 calander year.  If you want my experience with infertily then please go to http://2ndwife.mydeardiary.com/.  I'll be 22 next month and my husband is 30.  What that doctor did is unethical and completley stupid in my opinon. Maybe God is punishing that woman for having babies while living with her parents and not having a job.  Only God knows why that woman had 8 embryos implanted in her.  At most he should have put 2 or 3 to give her a fair chance but if she's unemployed then how is she supposed to take care of 14 kids? Why doesn't she get married?  These are questions that I have upon reading this story. 

  • snowvampire@xanga

    Well I want at least 6 kids though hopefully not all at once. I'm unemployed (though I have been applying for jobs with no luck) and my husband can't work as he's an international student and the USA government won't give him a Social Security number. I realize that to have children while I'm unemployed and we're on a monthly income of $1,800.00 (From my husband's government for his living expenses in the USA) is completley not fair to us or any child we may have in the future. I believe it's in God's hand whether I get pregnant or not, though I haven't been really trying to get pregnant for the past 4 months and that God will decide when the best time for my husband & I have to children.  I want kids yes, but I'm not so desperate for children that I will bring children into the USA and defintly not with the way the economy is.  We barely have enough at the end of the month once we pay for rent, phone, groceries, car insurance, my health insurance, cable/internet. 

  • Meahsmom@xanga

    @SarahAriella@xanga - I don't think this is so much about arguing and whining as it is about us discussing our way to conclusions about our stance on the the issue.  If we have progressed to the point that we are able to cause a woman to have 14 children in under 7 years, then we have also come to the point where we must then establish guidelines for whether or not it is an appropriate and wise thing to do.  We can put chimps on the moon, but just because it's possible that doesn't mean that we all feel that it would be right to allow some crazy with enough money to send them there with no regard to their health, or the morality of such a gross mismanagement of resources.  The taxpayers and voters must decide for themselves when this practice becomes detrimental to the health of our citizens and our society and act accordingly.

    Sorry that sounded so preachy - I really didn't mean to.

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  • NurseJenna
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